Subject: Re: Better than YDL and OSX
From: Nathan A. McQuillen (nm@steaky.dhs.org)
Date: Mon Oct 29 2001 - 16:52:57 MST
TS -
It was not my intention to start any fires -- I just felt that your
response could be construed as insulting and hasty (indeed, I construed
it as such), and might seem designed to keep secret some sort of arcane
knowledge about how to make one's computer work.
I for one would like to see /more/, not fewer, people using Linux, even if
they don't have the time to learn everything someone like you (or even I)
might know. I think much of the groundwork for this has been laid, and YDL
has done an excellent job with the tremendously difficult task of making
Linux accessible and even friendly for those whose previous computer
experience hasn't even included a command line.
I should mention here that I'm writing this on list because I know many
new users read the archives, and I want to make it very clear that there
are people on this list who /are/ sympathetic, even welcoming, to novices
and people with the natural frustrations of a Mac user encountering Linux.
It is not my intention to use this as a bully pulpit for anything, but if
this list is to provide the services I hope it can, it's got to be free of
insults and intimidation.
Now, to address that issue: I don't think it's "bizarre" to consider this:
> That would be because you came off as a freaking whiner. "Waah, YDL
> didn't meet the unrealistic expectations I invented for it, screw you
> guys, I'm going home!"
>
> It doesn't help your case that this whining came attached to an
> all-too-typical luser plea for somebody else to do work for you.
> Show at least a LITTLE incentive; it's not THAT difficult to figure
> out how to remove yourself from a mailing list, especially if you
> were smart enough to archive the first message you got from the list
> server...
to be insulting and intimidating, and I don't feel that it belongs on an
open help list. It's simply inappropriate -- it's an ad hominem attack
("freaking whiner" -- "all-too-typical" -- "if you were smart enough")
launched on someone for what? for voicing his frustration? In my rather
carefully considered reply, which you felt compelled to dismiss as a "long
screed", I was trying to redress some of the, very valid, concerns I've
seen new users voice on the list. This was by means of explanation,
/apologia/ if you will, written not to see my words on screen but to try
to clear up a miscommunication, and apparently you've as little use for
that as you seem to have for novice users or, as your posts seem to
suggest, for on-list courtesy.
Your comments were pretty clearly derogatory and dismissive, and /not/ the
sort of thing I care to encounter on listservs. Comments like that are
offputting and threatening to new users, and hurt our movement. 'Luser' is
a term of contempt, and your message was an uniquivocal attack on, and
condemnation of, somebody who was frustrated with the things in linux
which, frankly, *are* frustrating.
Enough said on /that/ I hope.
You also wrote:
>And yes, I am an engineer. I don't think you are stupid if you don't
>want to live in my world. But I reserve the right to think you
>stupid if you want to use software that requires living a little in
>my world but expect it to be a cakewalk for no obvious reason.
It has been said before, I think in this thread, that YDL is definitely
promoted as more of a "cakewalk" than some have found it to be. I for one
think the reason *is* pretty obvious -- a lot of folks with PPC hardware
are Mac users, and YDL is /not/ advertised as a server-only or lab-only
distro (there's Black Lab for that) nor even as something which most Mac
users would be terrifically unfamiliar with. But this has already been
addressed well and at length by that earlier post.
To reiterate a point from my last post, it's not only the needs of server
administrators or engineers that drive development in our community. I
would be curious how many of the lines of code written in the Gnu/Linux
world in the last few years have been server-oriented, compared to how
many have been ease of use, user interface, multimedia, office,
compatibility/emulation and gaming-oriented. It's certainly not just
server administrators (or engineers, or any other single user base) who
are the intended niche for YDL, or for any Linux built for home computers.
The only personal opinion I offered was that I think it's terrifically
important for /all/ developers to focus on usability as well as
completeness, extensibility, etc., and not to promote the idea that
powerful equals cryptic and difficult -- any ECE 101 class should drill
that into kids' heads pretty hard these days. User interface is an
essential element in the quality and functionality of any tool, and lest
we forget, computing is *not* a world, a religion or a new layer of
reality -- it's a tool, and like any tool, its evolution should tend
toward ease of use as well as efficiency and effectiveness. That's what
I'm talking about when I mention "quality and functionality," and I think
that's not such an unpopular definition of those attributes when applied
to tools in general /or/ to IT in specific.
Any MIS department has enough of the "cryptic is good" mentality to last
several lifetimes, usually with "expensive is even better" thrown in to
boot, and it often issues from those who are still fighting the server/PC
war, unaware that the surrender was signed 20 years ago. What's cool about
Linux is that it's both server and workstation, and that folks *are*
taking the time to make Linus's little techie toy usable and
comprehensible to those who you might dismiss as "lusers", but who those
funding the distros, and even some of us in the hinterlands of IT, know
are their bread and butter.
By the way, the "suite of GUI tools making Apache... easier to configure,"
which you say is not forthcoming or needed in YDL, sounds a lot like
Webmin to me, and AFAIK, YDL /has/ begun including Webmin with 2.1.
KDE/Gnome, Linuxconf, Webmin, printtool, etc., are pretty essential parts
of growing the user base and, honestly, making the OS functional for the
things that most people use computers for.
And it /does/ matter, even to engineers and developers and sysadmins.
Every manufacturer of rack-mounted, turnkey servers that I'm aware of
ships their systems with some sort of remote GUI-based config tool, and I
doubt I need to remind you why SNMP was developed, and how many GUI front
ends there are for SNMP-enabled products. It's simply easier to have a
unified interface for server hardware, not to mention the need for GUIs in
developing usable XML, the ease with which they simplify file management,
and the potential improvements granted by graphical logging and monitoring
tools. But this is all a matter of historical record at this point.
I hope this clarifies my earlier comments and isn't too much of a "screed"
for you. I also hope this can stand as an invitation to those with
frustrations to bring them to the list and let us help; and, to those
beginning their investigations, to approach Linux with caution and awe but
no fear. It doesn't take brains or even money to learn this stuff, it just
takes time, and it goes a lot easier with other folks to talk to.
Thanks,
Nathan
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